I listened to and studied Peterson and his daughter for years. I found his health issues and those of his wife and daughter to be particularly interesting.
At one point, all three famuly members were very sick and at that time much conventional medicine failed them miserably.
For example...
Mikhaila, Jordan's daughter, experimented with changes in her diet and she found her new diets to be profoundly curative. Night and day.
Evidently the Peterson family, and family friends, helped each other to sound health with love and logic. Their diet is not for everyone, but I think we all need to treat ourselves to healthy doses of such love and logic.
I understood the 12 rules idea, like the 12 steps idea of AA, as something that might be very useful for certain people who might be struggling with autonomy. I never thought it was for me.
Also, when I saw the academic book reports on Exodus and other books of the Christian Bible, I took them the same way I take Wikipedia articles. I study them to become familiar with the names, events, and ideas that are related in close association. I take everything with a grain of salt.
I certainly never saw Jordan as a spiritual leader. I really don't think there is such a thing.
Believe much?
As for me personally, I believe we are surrounded by miracles that we constantly fail to appreciate.
For example, I am an extreme introvert, a happy hermit, now married into an extended family of hundreds, many of whom honor me by calling me "Tío" (uncle). In any given year since 1990, I get at least three times as many hugs as there are days in a year.
Each hug is a miracle, a gift from God, as far as I'm concerned. Good luck trying to convince me otherwise.
Jordan will never be my personal counselor, spiritual or otherwise,, but I believe he has discovered some significant ideas respecting rhetoric, logic, health, metaphysics, and science. Many of his ideas, I beilieve, are worth careful examination.
Mark, your last paragraph is most pertinent for me, and on this we can agree, even Tom on the basis of what he shares (IMHO). Hopefully, Jordan finds a better, less self-absorbed (less 'hubris oriented' style) to present his views, esp with young folk, all who on a journey themselves, and many who are just young, lacking leveks of maturity, and often overly self-centred themselves, and out to score points and win. Jordan had an ideal opportunity to model his views (believes, life-orientation), and in a few cases in the Jubilee debates, his own personality and ego got in the way. Hey, it can happen to all of us; though does Jordan even admit it happened to him? This is the point. And is his arguments, rather than being tested against "atheism" should be tested in conversation with more critical & creative "theists" and those with more curiosity & compassion and less badgering & bullying. This is why, personally, I invite open mind, heart and will "dialogues" rather than debates.
When the harmful elements of a presentation outweight the benefits of it, then it's time to look elsewhere for one's learning and wisdom.
I think any debate, as a zero sum activity, producing a loser with every winner, will always be limited in its benefits. Being convincing is not the same as being right.
The dialogue you mention, if I understood you correctly, specifically as a mutual search for truth, call it a "dialectic," might be the best possible approach to discovering the truth. That would be a non-zero sum activity, a win/win, metaphorically speaking, the rising tide that lifts all boats.
Methods may differ, but the intention of discovering the true true, with its inherent goodness and natural beauty, such intention, and such attention, are what matters.
I summarize this rinse-and-repeat process as
Wake up
Wise up
Grow up
Show up...
I think at least 4 paths to truth should be consideted together, that is
Intuition
Imagination
Science (testing experientially)
Reasoning
and that implicate reality (souls, agape, compassion) matters just as explicate reality (measurable, observable stuff) matters.
Thanks, Tom. Astute as ever. Re. Jordan Petersen - listened to, admired, got increasingly concerned about, then got increasingly disillusioned with, and now never listen to anymore, as a too arrogant, self-absorbed "voice" on the world stage.
Again, I offer "Moving Beyond Hubris" poem (embedded in my substack) as a challenge to all of us, and in this case esp Petersen.
.
Hi Tom,
I listened to and studied Peterson and his daughter for years. I found his health issues and those of his wife and daughter to be particularly interesting.
At one point, all three famuly members were very sick and at that time much conventional medicine failed them miserably.
For example...
Mikhaila, Jordan's daughter, experimented with changes in her diet and she found her new diets to be profoundly curative. Night and day.
Evidently the Peterson family, and family friends, helped each other to sound health with love and logic. Their diet is not for everyone, but I think we all need to treat ourselves to healthy doses of such love and logic.
I understood the 12 rules idea, like the 12 steps idea of AA, as something that might be very useful for certain people who might be struggling with autonomy. I never thought it was for me.
Also, when I saw the academic book reports on Exodus and other books of the Christian Bible, I took them the same way I take Wikipedia articles. I study them to become familiar with the names, events, and ideas that are related in close association. I take everything with a grain of salt.
I certainly never saw Jordan as a spiritual leader. I really don't think there is such a thing.
Believe much?
As for me personally, I believe we are surrounded by miracles that we constantly fail to appreciate.
For example, I am an extreme introvert, a happy hermit, now married into an extended family of hundreds, many of whom honor me by calling me "Tío" (uncle). In any given year since 1990, I get at least three times as many hugs as there are days in a year.
Each hug is a miracle, a gift from God, as far as I'm concerned. Good luck trying to convince me otherwise.
Jordan will never be my personal counselor, spiritual or otherwise,, but I believe he has discovered some significant ideas respecting rhetoric, logic, health, metaphysics, and science. Many of his ideas, I beilieve, are worth careful examination.
But...
What do I lnow?
mark spark
[ :-)
.
Mark, your last paragraph is most pertinent for me, and on this we can agree, even Tom on the basis of what he shares (IMHO). Hopefully, Jordan finds a better, less self-absorbed (less 'hubris oriented' style) to present his views, esp with young folk, all who on a journey themselves, and many who are just young, lacking leveks of maturity, and often overly self-centred themselves, and out to score points and win. Jordan had an ideal opportunity to model his views (believes, life-orientation), and in a few cases in the Jubilee debates, his own personality and ego got in the way. Hey, it can happen to all of us; though does Jordan even admit it happened to him? This is the point. And is his arguments, rather than being tested against "atheism" should be tested in conversation with more critical & creative "theists" and those with more curiosity & compassion and less badgering & bullying. This is why, personally, I invite open mind, heart and will "dialogues" rather than debates.
Fantastic points from both you and Mark that I resonate with lots here!
.
Hi Roger,
When the harmful elements of a presentation outweight the benefits of it, then it's time to look elsewhere for one's learning and wisdom.
I think any debate, as a zero sum activity, producing a loser with every winner, will always be limited in its benefits. Being convincing is not the same as being right.
The dialogue you mention, if I understood you correctly, specifically as a mutual search for truth, call it a "dialectic," might be the best possible approach to discovering the truth. That would be a non-zero sum activity, a win/win, metaphorically speaking, the rising tide that lifts all boats.
Methods may differ, but the intention of discovering the true true, with its inherent goodness and natural beauty, such intention, and such attention, are what matters.
I summarize this rinse-and-repeat process as
Wake up
Wise up
Grow up
Show up...
I think at least 4 paths to truth should be consideted together, that is
Intuition
Imagination
Science (testing experientially)
Reasoning
and that implicate reality (souls, agape, compassion) matters just as explicate reality (measurable, observable stuff) matters.
mark spark
.
Thanks, Tom. Astute as ever. Re. Jordan Petersen - listened to, admired, got increasingly concerned about, then got increasingly disillusioned with, and now never listen to anymore, as a too arrogant, self-absorbed "voice" on the world stage.
Again, I offer "Moving Beyond Hubris" poem (embedded in my substack) as a challenge to all of us, and in this case esp Petersen.
https://open.substack.com/pub/rogerarendse/p/moving-beyond-hubris-into-our-higher?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=ql0vi
"Peterson" I.e. (let's not offend unnecessarily 😉